Agreed NeuroIR might be a good option. I'd try to touch base with the faculty who had anyone sick in the ICU or for whom any patients I had concerns on. Rising. During my third year, I fell in love with Neuro-Oncology and Neurology in general - it was so weird for me that Neuroanatomy, which was such a source of great fear for me, turned into a near-daily source of excitement as I "finally got it" and was able to understand how lesions and pathologies in specific neurologic systems/pathways could manifest as symptoms. And while patients may not get back to where they were, the vast, vast majority are incredibly happy to be alive and be where they are and are grateful for what you did for them. Background: I'm fresh out of an neuroendovascular fellowship and finished my residency last June.I had a small attending practice and took general cranial neurosurgery call during my … Everyone one here is saying do neurology because it’s easier or better lifestyle etc. but if you can’t stop thinking about surgery do that. I'm just going to give you guys my full background/story in hopes of gaining a bit more clarity on this issue. Neurosurgery is definitely sexy and thrilling to outsiders and is different than what you’d expect. We did pretty well about getting our post call guys out, even 5 or 6 years ago I probably got out of the hospital by 10am most post call days. We'd meet back up between 5-6pm to do hand out to the on call junior/chief and debrief and make sure no new issues/concerns and dole out OR cases for the next day. From what I've seen at my med school's institution, the lifestyle of an attending interventional neuroradiologist is much worse than that of an attending neurosurgeon. Also, it's a surgical field. There was a half day resident clinic at county every Friday. Posted by 5 days ago. From third year on I was basically in the OR four days a week. You wasted your PhD in that case. Fellowships: Like a lot of surgical subspecialties neurosurgical fellowships were a pretty unregulated bit; except for pediatrics which always seemed more organized. You meet your patient in pre op you start your OR you keep going to your OR is done. If they’re really lucky, they’ll have a reason to consult us and we can fix the patient for them. 6. While both fields only allow graduate medical specialists to practice in the respective fields, neurologists are focused on the diagnostic aspects of the specific condition, while neurosurgeons usually perform actual treatment on patients. The biggest ones need to be straight up called out: 1.) Less frequent but still some cases as a second year. Neurosurgery attracts masochists and people who are pathologically dedicated to their work, that much is true. I don't wanna sound narcissistic but its got a reputation and there's a nice ring to saying you're a neurosurgeon. Join. A neurosurgeon and a neurologist both specialize in the treatment of medical problems affecting the central nervous system. A consensus is, if you're in it for the brain, do neurology. It's stroke, stroke, stroke, hemorrhagic stroke, stroke, stroke, stroke. There is no cure for GBM, neurotrauma can be bad, high grade subarachniod hemorrhage can be bad. You can be in the angiosuite playing video games with catheters. The relative reward is something only you can determine. : You need to really want to be doing surgery on the brain and spine I think cause its a long road. I think anyone considering it needs a rotation to see if the reality of it is still for you. Your entire worth as a neurosurgeon is in operating. By Stephen Hochschuler, MD | Peer Reviewed. This led me to dabble in some clinical research, and I also managed to get a middle-author paper on a neurosurgery topic. I'm not sure if this line of logic makes a ton of sense but I'm happy to clarify. A neurosurgeon is trained to treat conditions of the brain and spine, while an orthopaedic spine surgeon specializes in … Of course, if there's something cool as a first start you want to see and you didn't get slaughtered the night before, then stick around. In fairness, the cool stuff is a minor part of neurology too. If you’re experiencing symptoms of a neurological condition, you may be referred to a neurologist, a neurosurgeon, … Keep in mind no matter what you do most residencies are trying. I think to do NSx, the guys I talked to were surgeons first, neuro people second. It's also the worst field in medicine. Then after 48 hours go home, sleep 12 hours, then come back and work 48 hours, and then sleep 12 hours, and then enjoy your 2 day weekend. The brain is one of the last great frontiers. Spine, spine, spine, trauma, spine, spine, shunt, shunt, shunt, shunt, spine, brain cancer, shunt, shunt, spine. Neurology has an especially close relationship with psychology and psychiatry, as all three disciplines focus on the functions and disorders of a single organ, the brain. I would ideally like to continue doing wet bench research in neuro-oncology, and I've been told by both Neurologists and Neurosurgeons that Neurology training is likely the better option if I want to remain in academia and basic science. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the medicalschool community. Fuck that PGY17. Background: I'm fresh out of an neuroendovascular fellowship and finished my residency last June. But we had rotations at other hospitals with home call where that schedule varied. It's mostly spines. Fast forward to the present, and I cannot stop thinking about Neurosurgery. Neurology is the medical specialty focusing on the diagnosis and treatment of conditions that affect the brain and nervous system, as well as the spinal cord, blood vessels, muscles, and nerves. Its not a medicine ward team waiting for the attending to round (to be honest the attending may not round) to come up with the plan. If you didn’t like the day to day stuff or culture that’s a very long run for a short slide if you were to go into neurosurgery. I also managed to win a few national pre-doctoral fellowships, one of which paid for my stipend for the last few years of my PhD. Interventional neuroradiologists take Q3 call (at my institution) and rarely have non-urgent cases, whereas neurosurgeons can take on elective spine cases to keep the lights on. But I just can't shake that feeling of how cool it was to see a GBM for the first time in the flesh, and about how the neurosurgeons really valiantly tried (ultimately in vain) to save a gentleman s/p MVA with a Kjellberg approach. Neuroscience vs Neurology Neuroscience and neurology are both related to the nervous system. By 12 Feb 2021 12 Feb 2021 Cookies help us deliver our Services. We'd have two to three ORs "starting" at 7:30. card. Hot New Top. Reasons why to do X specialty: It's cutting edge. ... help Reddit App Reddit coins Reddit premium Reddit gifts. Personally, I found it amazing. Downsides: Some spine surgery, which is such a big part of private practice neurosurgery, is painful and, of questionable overuse. It’s probably the most research-oriented specialty aside maybe from radiation oncology. I was humbled to receive Honors in every rotation, except for Radiology. At the time of this writing, there are 26 medical and surgical specialities to choose from when applying for residency in the Match. All that said, I agree with your last paragraph. Cookies help us deliver our Services. Academic training centers are range between 50/50 to 75/25 spine/cranial. It’s not for most people. TL;DR: Do neurosurgery because the brain is a fascinating space and there are incredible tools and toys coming out all the time to play with and you get to help people with incredibly scary diseases. Dismissing some misconceptions: Plenty of surgeons are type A but most neurosurgery training programs, I get the sense, are not malignant. Second, neurology being “one the most exciting fields” in medicine is subjective, so I can’t necessarily say you’re wrong on facts, but let’s just say that either specialty attracts different personalities. Yeah, that's going to be a minor part of neurosurgery. Yeah, clinic sucks but the actual spine surgeries themselves are some of the most exciting and technically engaging cases in all of surgery. How do you know if X specialty is right for you? It’s a subspecialty of neurology and it might be better for you in terms of lifestyle and competitiveness. My M1 year was the worst year by far for me - my grandmother got diagnosed with cancer in the winter of my M1 year, and my request for a leave of absence at that time was denied on the grounds that it would adversely affect my scholarship (MD/PhD program provided). As you might have figured out from the first paragraph, I'm an MD/PhD student, and I am a rising M4 student, soon to pass through the veritable madness that is the Match. Also, interventional neurology is a neurosurgery-driven field... always under the department of neurosurgery who also drives the research paving the way. The Neurology-Infectious Diseases Program is a unique subspecialty structured to diagnose, treat, and study the vast neurological complications of an array of infectious agents. + Early diagnosis allows the treating physician--a neurologist, neurosurgeon, neuroradiologist, or a generalist--to accurately counsel the patient and start the best therapy at the earliest possible time. The actual time worked could really vary wildly but on average I'd say I got there at 6am and left at 7-8pm as chief. I was hoping that you guys might be able to offer some thoughts on a minor quandary I've found myself in. It was also during this time that I became interested in Neurosurgery - a close friend lost his daughter to DIPG, and I was just so shocked at the lack of treatment options, and about how little we understood about such a devastating illness. Neurologist vs Neurosurgeon. Inpatient vs Outpatient: In training we were lucky, we didn't have to cover a lot of faculty clinics. Hope all of you are well during these strange and difficult times. Advice for an M4: Neurology vs Radiology route for Neurointerventional career or Neurosurgery Hey guys, soon to be M4 here (US DO) looking for some advice. For some reason, NueroIR is not included in integrated IR. Some junior would be on peds and walk to that tower to round. 3.) Call: As above at my county hospital it was q 4 - 5 in house as a junior and q 2 - 3 from home as a chief. As the name implies, it is a neurosurgeon who is licensed to operate upon a body part of a patient. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Orthopedic Surgeon vs. Neurosurgeon for Spine Surgery. Except for my research year. Really only one of the NSx residents was more into the brain than surgery itself. My M3 year went so much better than I could have hoped for. Not to mention that interventional neuroradiology usually involves a WORSE lifestyle and call burden than an attending neurosurgeon would suffer. We'd have assigned OR cases the night before; lots of places do it weekly. Also - spine is fucking fun. Can you not apply to both specialties? What is the difference between neurologist and neurosurgeon? I'm terrified that I might not match given my red flags in my M1 year, and I was hoping those of us who've gone ahead could chime in on this issue as well. Neurology attracts people who enjoy 1 hour long outpatient office visits for conditions they can’t fix or even effectively treat. There is are so many amazing gadgets and tools to learn and play with. In general the fellowships are: Typical day: As a resident my days varied quite considerably. I managed to find a young, supportive PI, and published 4 papers, 3 first-author, and one middle author. These subjects have a close connection with biology, medicine, chemistry, computer science and even mathematics. I would say do neurology. We'd average 5 or 6 new consults a day. From PGY-1 you have to identify problems and fix them. I actually had some decent chats with neurosurgery and neurology residents about this. In addition 7 - 9 years is a long time. Also, despite what I said above, there are some bad outcomes. Hot. Neurologists and neurosurgeons both specialize in treating conditions related to the brain, spine and nervous system, but these two specialties take different paths to provide care for people with a long list of neurological disorders ranging from multiple sclerosis and epilepsy to brain and spine tumors. You found neurosurgery really cool, because it absolutely is really cool. Some neurologists focus on a subspecialty like neurophysiology, pediatric neurology, epilepsy, vascular neurology, behavioral neurology, or others. Our general census was 60 - 70 patients. We'd try to keep the junior holding the call pager out of the OR except for emergencies. Call was q 4-5 as a junior in house and q 2-3 as a chief at county. Thank you all who took the time to read this - and I welcome all comments. It sounds like a case of grass being greener on the other side. Our section cares for patients suffering from conditions including: If you are planning to treat patients, you are looking at a specialty in motion disorder neurology. You can do a lot of good for people with really serious conditions. Add to the mix that I met the love of my life and got married just a few years ago and I am really at a loss, as I would ideally like to see my family once every few days. A PhD is the opposite of wasted in neurosurgery - it’s probably the single best field for utilizing a PhD if you want to continue doing research as a physician scientist, whether bench, translational, or clinical. As a result, I tried my best to stick it through (bad idea) and spectacularly failed both Anatomy and Neurosciences, which I was able to remediate my retaking their final exams at the end of M1. But 1-2 years of that is research or an enfolded fellowship. One key difference between neurology and neurological surgery is income. For others who are confused, just IR is completely different in terms of residency path. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Hot New Top Rising. Neurology attracts people who enjoy 1 hour long outpatient office visits for conditions they can’t fix or even effectively treat. Some of these injuries and diseases take a long time to recovery. This way you let the gods of NRMP decide for you. Interestingly, I also got to rotate for about 2 weeks with the Neurosurgery folks at my institution and to my surprise, I just really didn't get along; I always felt like an outsider, which was in stark contrast to the remainder of the rotation in Neurology. Neurosurgery attracts masochists and people who are pathologically dedicated to their work, that much is true. If neurosurgery is what you describe, Neurology is stroke, stroke, read EEGs on pseudoseizure rule-out patients, stroke, titrate AEDs on consult patients other specialties are fixing, stroke, read EEGs, stroke. Seems like you enjoy the neuroscience aspect and will get to see plenty of cool stuff without having to go through residency. I'm not doing either, but had some chill teams to talk about this kind of thing on each respective rotation. You have to absolutely love surgery, and arguably hate anything else to do neurosurgery. TL;DR: Do neurosurgery because the brain is a fascinating space and there are incredible tools and toys coming out all the time to play with and you get to help people with incredibly scary diseases. You can't be trying to find yourself still probably (still thinking about what medicine fellowship you're gonna do). Many neurological problems are characterized by pain and can be chronic, debilitating and difficult to treat. I'll help the neuro IR guys with stroke and hopefully, over time, build a cranial and primarily vascular practice. Training accreditation, made by a board that is shared by neurology and psychiatry, has resulted in suboptimal lengths of neurology training in psychiatry and of psychiatry training in neurology. Take a message to Garcia. You might just not like the people/culture at your own program and every place is different. We started the day at 6am with table rounds. It is fascinating. This is a little misleading as you are not making $700k as a neurologist but rather as your total income that includes income from neurology practice as well as profit from your business employing NPs and holding real estate. I also loved the detailed history taking and physical exam that was part of nearly every patient interaction in Neurology. You have to be very self driven and proactive and organized; its a small specialty with small teams with big censuses. But you still cannot make out the differences between a neurologist and a neurosurgeon. A neurosurgeon will perform the required surgeries. Also, those cool surgeries you've been seeing? Don't judge fields of medicine by the absolute coolest and best parts of the field. The chief would round through the ICU with whatever junior was there. Procedures: To me it sometimes seemed like neurosurgery is so specialized that it shouldn't be this way but you do all different *types* of surgery. Neurology not only deals with the the most valuable part of our body 'The Brain", it also deals with the largest system in our body. 10+ Year Member. By using our Services, you agree to our use of cookies.Learn More. I then entered my PhD years, where I did my work in cancer biology. Sometimes the fellowships can be combined for instance skull base/cerebrovascular + endovascular. Neurologist vs. neurosurgeon — both treat patients with disorders or injuries related to the nervous system, but what is the difference, and where do the two overlap? Otherwise, neurology lends itself to an immense amount of flexibility and research. Press J to jump to the feed. Aspiring neurologists must complete a three-year residency in neurology units in settings like hospitals or medical centers, where they learn more about the structure and function of the brain and nervous system, different neurological diseases, and various types of treatments. Probably more so than the long hours on an IM ward team or long hours on psych. About half of them consults. share pin it Newsletters. It’s relative. Long story short, I am having trouble fully committing/deciding between Neurosurgery and Neurology.